This was the original Seminole Heights blog with commentary about life in and around the urban neighborhood of Seminole Heights in Tampa, Florida. Musings about other topics as my mood permits. The blog is essentially inactive since I moved to Lutz. Go to The Official Unofficial Seminole Heights Blog - www.seminoleheightsblog.com for active content.
Saturday, March 04, 2006
"Protesting for the sake of being loud"
bootsgt posted on his blog some commentary about the no, no no signs that were posted on the Starbucks sign a bit back. One line I found great was "Look at me! I'm a cool counter-culture protester getting my anti-corporate merit badge."
I'm not anti-corporate and am in favor of starbucks in SH. But why is it that if we can pin a label on someone then we are somehow in this omniscient role to pigeon hole them and therefore somehow reveal their innate hypocrisy? There are people who are anti-corporate but labeling them or belittling their actions doesn't erase them or somehow subvert their actions. Labels provide us with an "other" and therefore leads to further separation of hearts and minds.
Attempting to label vandalism as civil disobedience is cowardly and juvenile. A respectable protest would be to picket peacefully or write an editorial or something other than skulking around in the shadows and defacing private property. I equate a johnny-come-lately act of vandalism to a spoiled toddler throwing a tantrum crying "no, no, no" because things didn't go as they'd hoped.
How many times does it have to be said that tacking up some photocopies on a construction billboard is a far cry from VANDALISM? Personally, I don't care one way or the other about having Starbucks in the neighborhood, but I wouldn't show up at a meeting to express my support for them. Don't they have people that are paid to do that? I think that there are a few more pressing issues to which I could devote my time. The blogger acknowledges that there were objections made at the ARC meetings, and then asks where these people were in the beginning. Maybe these were the same people. As far as the Rosa Parks comparison goes...yeah that's a stretch, but remember that she was breaking the law. I don't think that this case necessarily applies, but sometimes when the system is inherently flawed, the only way to affect change is to work outside of it.
Are you arguing that the message is what limits the label of the "vandalism." or that it was merely the fact that they were photocopies posted on a board? Would you be so quick to defend it if said signs were messages of hate directed at a particular race, sexual orientation, or religon even if it was posted as innocuously as some flimsy pieces of paper on a signboard? It may be a matter of semantics, but vandalism is defined as willful defacement of public or private property(check m-w for the full definition). Technically defacing doesnt mean permanently altering, but just mar the external appearance of or impair. So in the most technical of terms the act was vandalism, minor vandalism perhaps, but vandalism. Apparently personal vandalism meters register such acts to varying degrees. In any event, attempting to validate this behavior as legitimate protest is misguided at best.
people resort to vandalism because theyre opinions are not represented by the elected officials who that claim to. no average person can compete in any way shape or form with starbucks, whether in business or simply going to city council meetings which are held when you and i are at work to oppose or even to speak in favor of it. at least people against it do so out of principal rather than buying into some ideal that somehow theyre neighborhood is better off because of overpriced coffee, when actually all it is about is a big circle jerk so people with low self esteem about where they live can feel better about themselves because having a starbucks makes them somehow look better. does anyone pay attention in our corrupt city government if you do not make a extreme statement? would they have went to all that trouble to accomadate a locally owned business? hell no.
Sorry, but vandalism is never justified. If you don't feel the local politicians are representing you fairly, there are plenty of legal options for response. As for the the hooplah surrounding the upcoming Starbucks.....Don't like the Starbucks? Don't go there. That's the best way to make your statement now that it's already being built. Perfectly legal and effective.
As for the above comments re: how Starbucks came to pass. The meetings *I* attended about whether the Starbucks would be built or not were all after regular working hours. In fact at one of them we weren't heard until after 10pm! I saw no 'paid' supporters. What I saw was a lot of local people who came out and spoke their mind for or against it being built.
Far from being ashamed of where I live, I am PROUD to live in Seminole Heights with or WITHOUT a Starbucks. However, I hardly think a single coffee shop heralds the end of Seminole Heights as we know it. I believe many people are way overreacting to the impact the Starbucks will have on our neighborhood.
it does not mean the end of the neighborhood it means it it changing. if starbucks succeeds [and which one hasnt]other chains move in, rentals go up, and average people can no longer afford to start business, and anyone who says different is on crack. the negatives far outweigh the positives. besides if starbucks, etc is so important why would you move to seminole heights anyway?
was it not over two months ago that the no, no, no signs were removed? get over it! it was a joke! so what?! short on material there david? geez, let me know and i´ll vandalize some more shit for you and you can spend hours writing more crap about it on your little blog that people can argue about...
You sad pack of old women! Is coffee or wheat pasted art that important in the grand scheme of things? Did you finally close down the crack houses on the outskirts of your newly gentrified little enclave? Have you given hope and job opportunities to all the sex workers on Nebraska? Do the kids have something worthwhile to do after school besides playing video games and eating junk food? Are the widows and single mothers and elderly residents of your neighborhood getting the care and assistance they need? Corporate coffee is a reality of the American urban landscape! If you don't like it don't drink it- vote with your dollars! Grafitti is also an integral part of the urban landscape. If you don't like it go out and cover it up or tear it down or move to one of those nice gated communities in new Tampa. If you really tried to build an inclusive, open-minded community where all voices are heard and valued maybe the disenfrachised among you wouldn't have to resort to 'vandalism' to get their point across. The folks with the Krylon cans and the wheat paste flyers were there before you. Folks have been writing on walls since they lived in caves- it's not going to change. Piss on your pathetic, petty kvetching! Maybe Brandon is more to your liking? My name is chuckgutz and I don't miss this tired old suburban shit at all!
I always come on these things late but I still have to stick my two cents in.
No one should be surprised over the hatred that Starbucks invokes. This is not unusual. Regardless of Starbuck's record, they will be hated for one reason by some (not all) and that is for their success. As Eric Hoffer said, Power corrupts the few, whereas Weakness corrupts the many. A feeling of inferiority leads to the immature nihilistic responses we've seen. I'm not saying that all who oppose Starbucks are like this. Personally, I don't go to Starbucks and am not really a fan of coffee. I do see Starbucks as more marketing than substance. However, that's a far cry from being evil. And if people want to go there, I don't understand why others would begrudge them of that choice.
For me, it came down to the development of that particular corner. I understood the reasonable objections to Starbucks but I also heard some unreasonable ones. It would have been a bad choice for the neighborhood to make the decision, pro or con, based on whose name was on the sign. Did the people, the neighbors want this? Yes. Overwhelmingly. Of course, we could have been elitist and just assumed the uneducated masses don't know what they need. I guess the next step would have been to start a reeducation camp and force everyone to wear Che Guevara T-Shirts.
I wasn't planning on really patronizing Starbucks once they get here... but that was before I realized they bring the extra benefit of needling the nihilists in our midsts.
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but in reality seminole heights was a suburb built in the 1920 off a highway and trolly route. You want something truly urban try the loop in downtown chicago or Manhatten. The trolley is long gone and the highways are here to stay. Tampa keeps growing out building new on the fringes,while areas like Seminole Heights are left to either stagnate as an 80 year old suburb or work together to reinvigorate both the residential and commercial parts of our neighborhood.
Lets be glad someone is reusing property in our neighborhood and not building it out in PAsco County for all the cookie cutter neighborhoods being thrown up there.
Are we still fighting about a done deal? I'm amazed that people are that upset about Starbucks. As the new businesses come in, the price of the land rises. Doesn't matter what kinds of business. The small auto repair shop near me sold for $165K 9 months ago and then closed and sold just recently for about $375K. All of that had nothing to do with Starbucks. The prices are UP. It has nothing to do with Starbucks.
I'm not anti-corporate and am in favor of starbucks in SH. But why is it that if we can pin a label on someone then we are somehow in this omniscient role to pigeon hole them and therefore somehow reveal their innate hypocrisy? There are people who are anti-corporate but labeling them or belittling their actions doesn't erase them or somehow subvert their actions. Labels provide us with an "other" and therefore leads to further separation of hearts and minds.
ReplyDeleteAttempting to label vandalism as civil disobedience is cowardly and juvenile. A respectable protest would be to picket peacefully or write an editorial or something other than skulking around in the shadows and defacing private property. I equate a johnny-come-lately act of vandalism to a spoiled toddler throwing a tantrum crying "no, no, no" because things didn't go as they'd hoped.
ReplyDeleteHow many times does it have to be said that tacking up some photocopies on a construction billboard is a far cry from VANDALISM? Personally, I don't care one way or the other about having Starbucks in the neighborhood, but I wouldn't show up at a meeting to express my support for them. Don't they have people that are paid to do that? I think that there are a few more pressing issues to which I could devote my time. The blogger acknowledges that there were objections made at the ARC meetings, and then asks where these people were in the beginning. Maybe these were the same people. As far as the Rosa Parks comparison goes...yeah that's a stretch, but remember that she was breaking the law. I don't think that this case necessarily applies, but sometimes when the system is inherently flawed, the only way to affect change is to work outside of it.
ReplyDeleteAre you arguing that the message is what limits the label of the "vandalism." or that it was merely the fact that they were photocopies posted on a board? Would you be so quick to defend it if said signs were messages of hate directed at a particular race, sexual orientation, or religon even if it was posted as innocuously as some flimsy pieces of paper on a signboard?
ReplyDeleteIt may be a matter of semantics, but vandalism is defined as willful defacement of public or private property(check m-w for the full definition). Technically defacing doesnt mean permanently altering, but just mar the external appearance of or impair. So in the most technical of terms the act was vandalism, minor vandalism perhaps, but vandalism. Apparently personal vandalism meters register such acts to varying degrees. In any event, attempting to validate this behavior as legitimate protest is misguided at best.
people resort to vandalism because theyre opinions are not represented by the elected officials who that claim to. no average person can compete in any way shape or form with starbucks, whether in business or simply going to city council meetings which are held when you and i are at work to oppose or even to speak in favor of it. at least people against it do so out of principal rather than buying into some ideal that somehow theyre neighborhood is better off because of overpriced coffee, when actually all it is about is a big circle jerk so people with low self esteem about where they live can feel better about themselves because having a starbucks makes them somehow look better. does anyone pay attention in our corrupt city government if you do not make a extreme statement?
ReplyDeletewould they have went to all that trouble to accomadate a locally owned business? hell no.
Sorry, but vandalism is never justified. If you don't feel the local politicians are representing you fairly, there are plenty of legal options for response. As for the the hooplah surrounding the upcoming Starbucks.....Don't like the Starbucks? Don't go there. That's the best way to make your statement now that it's already being built. Perfectly legal and effective.
ReplyDeleteAs for the above comments re: how Starbucks came to pass. The meetings *I* attended about whether the Starbucks would be built or not were all after regular working hours. In fact at one of them we weren't heard until after 10pm! I saw no 'paid' supporters. What I saw was a lot of local people who came out and spoke their mind for or against it being built.
Far from being ashamed of where I live, I am PROUD to live in Seminole Heights with or WITHOUT a Starbucks. However, I hardly think a single coffee shop heralds the end of Seminole Heights as we know it. I believe many people are way overreacting to the impact the Starbucks will have on our neighborhood.
it does not mean the end of the neighborhood it means it it changing. if starbucks succeeds [and which one hasnt]other chains move in, rentals go up, and average people can no longer afford to start business, and anyone who says different is on crack. the negatives far outweigh the positives. besides if starbucks, etc is so important why would you move to seminole heights anyway?
ReplyDeletewas it not over two months ago that the no, no, no signs were removed? get over it! it was a joke! so what?! short on material there david? geez, let me know and i´ll vandalize some more shit for you and you can spend hours writing more crap about it on your little blog that people can argue about...
ReplyDeleteJuvenile
ReplyDeletechildish.
ReplyDeletelynch the vandals
ReplyDeleteYou sad pack of old women! Is coffee or wheat pasted art that important in the grand scheme of things? Did you finally close down the crack houses on the outskirts of your newly gentrified little enclave? Have you given hope and job opportunities to all the sex workers on Nebraska? Do the kids have something worthwhile to do after school besides playing video games and eating junk food? Are the widows and single mothers and elderly residents of your neighborhood getting the care and assistance they need? Corporate coffee is a reality of the American urban landscape! If you don't like it don't drink it- vote with your dollars! Grafitti is also an integral part of the urban landscape. If you don't like it go out and cover it up or tear it down or move to one of those nice gated communities in new Tampa. If you really tried to build an inclusive, open-minded community where all voices are heard and valued maybe the disenfrachised among you wouldn't have to resort to 'vandalism' to get their point across. The folks with the Krylon cans and the wheat paste flyers were there before you. Folks have been writing on walls since they lived in caves- it's not going to change. Piss on your pathetic, petty kvetching! Maybe Brandon is more to your liking? My name is chuckgutz and I don't miss this tired old suburban shit at all!
ReplyDeleteA message from what appears to be the "artist" in question claims it was a joke. If so, it was petty mischief, not protest. Case closed.
ReplyDeleteI always come on these things late but I still have to stick my two cents in.
ReplyDeleteNo one should be surprised over the hatred that Starbucks invokes. This is not unusual. Regardless of Starbuck's record, they will be hated for one reason by some (not all) and that is for their success. As Eric Hoffer said, Power corrupts the few, whereas Weakness corrupts the many. A feeling of inferiority leads to the immature nihilistic responses we've seen. I'm not saying that all who oppose Starbucks are like this. Personally, I don't go to Starbucks and am not really a fan of coffee. I do see Starbucks as more marketing than substance. However, that's a far cry from being evil. And if people want to go there, I don't understand why others would begrudge them of that choice.
For me, it came down to the development of that particular corner. I understood the reasonable objections to Starbucks but I also heard some unreasonable ones. It would have been a bad choice for the neighborhood to make the decision, pro or con, based on whose name was on the sign. Did the people, the neighbors want this? Yes. Overwhelmingly. Of course, we could have been elitist and just assumed the uneducated masses don't know what they need. I guess the next step would have been to start a reeducation camp and force everyone to wear Che Guevara T-Shirts.
I wasn't planning on really patronizing Starbucks once they get here... but that was before I realized they bring the extra benefit of needling the nihilists in our midsts.
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but in reality seminole heights was a suburb built in the 1920 off a highway and trolly route. You want something truly urban try the loop in downtown chicago or Manhatten. The trolley is long gone and the highways are here to stay. Tampa keeps growing out building new on the fringes,while areas like Seminole Heights are left to either stagnate as an 80 year old suburb or work together to reinvigorate both the residential and commercial parts of our neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteLets be glad someone is reusing property in our neighborhood and not building it out in PAsco County for all the cookie cutter neighborhoods being thrown up there.
Are we still fighting about a done deal? I'm amazed that people are that upset about Starbucks. As the new businesses come in, the price of the land rises. Doesn't matter what kinds of business. The small auto repair shop near me sold for $165K 9 months ago and then closed and sold just recently for about $375K. All of that had nothing to do with Starbucks. The prices are UP. It has nothing to do with Starbucks.
ReplyDelete